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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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 Posted: Wed 20 Jun 2007 14:28 Post subject: |
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Evolution is not "fact". It is "scientific theory". It has not been PROVEN to be true, only SUPPORTED. Now is evolution true? Yes of course it PROBABLY!!!! is.
Again, evolution is a scientific theory. But just because it's not OFFICIALLY fact doesn't make it any more discreditable.
And my defense of Creationism (in my strange desire to uphold both arguments, even though I only believe in one of them) is that, while unscientific, it is still deserving of cultural respect. People believe in it because they were taught to by their ancestors, and simply believing can't have any harm.
So what DID I attack in the debate... I attacked the people who chose to campaign negatively, who said one of two very inflammable statements. Not in the community though, but in people out there (anywhere really) who say one of these two things:
"You believe in the wrong thing and you'll go to Hell!"
"You believe in the wrong thing and you're stupid!"
Neither of these should look very appetizing to either side. I hope not anyway.
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Cyborg Dragon
Dragonstar
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 336
Location: Wichita Kansas
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| Posted: Wed 20 Jun 2007 15:03 Post subject: |
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| Ragnarok wrote: |
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so it'll probably continue to be thrown back and forth (which many are getting tired of  ) |
I only really get tired of it after the same point is raised for the third or fourth time, or when it's the definitions being disputed. |
If intelligent design is required in Kansas classrooms again then I'm sure you would get tired of it, the school standards on evolution has been changed at least 5 times in about as many years.
I have full liberty to disagree with all views saying Evolution is true, I've heard from both my parents and books and the website of the Institute for Creation Research stating that there's mounting evidence that the Earth is not 4.6 billion years old. I tell my parents, what about the evidence the scientists say points to evolution, they simply say the scientists refuse to believe the evidence for creationism.
Now tell me this, are scientists welcoming to others putting the theory which they uphold to scutiny, or are they so confident it's true they think it doesn't need it?
I can't explain the proof that's claimed to point towards creationism here very well. But this website can explain it very well. So I'll let it do the work
http://www.icr.org/
Hey, you said I could step up to offer a view from a creationist viewpoint 
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Iseathielos Adismal, the green, blue, and yellow Dragon. This Dragon is me and what I believe myself to be, it is reality for me. |
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Wed 20 Jun 2007 15:27 Post subject: |
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| Hyraxylos wrote: |
| Evolution is not "fact". |
Yes it is.
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| It is "scientific theory". |
Yes, it's that, too.
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It has not been PROVEN to be true, only SUPPORTED. Now is evolution true? Yes of course it PROBABLY!!!!
Again, evolution is a scientific theory. But just because it's not OFFICIALLY fact doesn't make it any more discreditable. |
Evolution is both fact and theory. The theory of evolution explains the mechanisms of the fact of evolution.
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| And my defense of Creationism (in my strange desire to uphold both arguments, even though I only believe in one of them) is that, while unscientific, it is still deserving of cultural respect. |
Sure, in an anthropological sense, and in the same way that the myths of the Greeks and Romans are deserving of cultural respect. If it pretends to be science, however, the gloves come off.
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| People believe in it because they were taught to by their ancestors, and simply believing can't have any harm. |
Yes it can. Belief in a myth, as opposed to the truth can and does have negative consequences in scientific advancement, especially when the myth is the majority view.
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DarkDragon
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 1575
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| Posted: Wed 20 Jun 2007 15:44 Post subject: |
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Seeing as how I've stayed out of this debate (being a beliver in my own "God gave everthing a shove and let the dice fall where they may" ideal of Adaptation and Eons therum".) Looking at this one, we could go on and on chasing each other's tails, but there is no way to provide definite, irrefuttable proof one way or the other.
But all in all, we should teach our children not what we believe is correct, but give them access to all the possible options, and leave them to decide what is "right" or "wrong".
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Wed 20 Jun 2007 16:14 Post subject: |
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| Cyborg Dragon wrote: |
| If intelligent design is required in Kansas classrooms again then I'm sure you would get tired of it, the school standards on evolution has been changed at least 5 times in about as many years. |
Well, changing the standards that much would make anyone's head spin.
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| I have full liberty to disagree with all views saying Evolution is true, I've heard from both my parents and books and the website of the Institute for Creation Research stating that there's mounting evidence that the Earth is not 4.6 billion years old. |
In that case, they are both quite wrong. And on the other side, young-Earth creationism holds that the Earth began 1000 years after agriculture became relatively widespread, 2000 years after the copper age, 3000 years after the neolithic, 5000 years after the domestication of the dog...shall I go on?
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| I tell my parents, what about the evidence the scientists say points to evolution, they simply say the scientists refuse to believe the evidence for creationism. |
One doesn't refuse to believe in that which does not exist.
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| Now tell me this, are scientists welcoming to others putting the theory which they uphold to scrutiny, or are they so confident it's true they think it doesn't need it? |
The theory of evolution is constantly being tested. Every time something replicates, it is tested. When a virus mutates, it is tested. When new fossils are found, it is tested. All these tests end in favor of evolution.
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I can't explain the proof that's claimed to point towards creationism here very well. But this website can explain it very well. So I'll let it do the work
http://www.icr.org/ |
Have any articles there been published in peer-reviewed journals?
Also, it seems that a number of them have already had their claims soundly rebutted at talkorigins. Looking at the first few "research" papers, here are some rebuttals: No vapor canopy, no flood, I had no idea what the next two were saying, so I skipped them, no accelerated decay, no accelerated decay x2, and no catastrophic plate tectonice.
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| Hey, you said I could step up to offer a view from a creationist viewpoint |
Indeed.
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Cyborg Dragon
Dragonstar
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 336
Location: Wichita Kansas
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| Posted: Wed 20 Jun 2007 16:40 Post subject: |
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When you say, doesn't exist, do you mean God himself?
Now tell me, do you not believe in the spiritual concept of the soul either, if so then how can you possibly believe you're a Dragon?
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| The theory of evolution is constantly being tested. Every time something replicates, it is tested. When a virus mutates, it is tested. When new fossils are found, it is tested. All these tests end in favor of evolution. |
I've heard arguments before that mutation is not evolution, mutations are very rarely beneficial to the animal, for evolution to occur you would need to have thousands of such changes that are beneficial, nonetheless carried on to the next generation.
About fossils the ICR argues that the great flood of Noah was responsible for the fossilization and layering of sediment. I've heard it must've occured in part because there's huge flood stories in many world cultures. About replication, how does that test evolution? It's simply the same copy of the same animal with the same complexity, Creationism is not debunked by that.
Also about the fossils, the ICR has pointed that with massive volumes of water big changes could occur in a short period of time. Read the Mt. St. Helens story on that site in the Back to Genesis section, they talk of how fossils that formed since 1980 were found from quick burial and tons of water and that 20 year old lava rocks had carbon dates of millions of years.
Look, my parents believe that if Evolution is true, then God doesn't exist, and when we die, we're gone, that view makes it seem like life on Earth is worthless because we'll cease to exist on dying instead of going to some eternal home.
Look, I'm not trying to flame anyone here nor am I forcing to make others become creationists.
And here's something to go by (the part in bold)
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| For Dr. Scott, and no doubt most of the nearly 1,000 signatories to her “Statement of Concern”4 over the recent opening of the Creation Museum in Petersburg, KY, open inquiry cannot be tolerated when it comes to the teaching of origins. Yet true science can only take place when avenues of exploration are kept open, not slammed shut due to an arbitrary decision that certain theories must be "kept out" at all costs. In light of the recent poll results cited above, the majority of Americans believe some form of creationism. This would be a good time for the science education establishment to follow its own recommendations and actually take a crack at "opposing points of view and the free examination of ideas." |
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Iseathielos Adismal, the green, blue, and yellow Dragon. This Dragon is me and what I believe myself to be, it is reality for me. |
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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed 20 Jun 2007 16:52 Post subject: |
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There is no way to disprove the existence of the gods. None. None whatsoever at all. There's no way to prove they exist scientifically, but that's only because they are themselves unscientific. I'm not saying that the gods DON'T exist, but I'm just saying there's no way to PROVE they don't. 
A little ambiguity here...
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| Evolution is both fact and theory. |
This befuddled me at first! I'm like "Whoa, wtf?!" and took me awhile to gather up the common sense to read the NEXT SENTENCE.  hehe so yeah that is correct. It is factual that evolution exists, and we can clearly observe the evolution of life to this day. Including humanity's evolution.
As for CD's recent comments... the point is that someone can be so attached to their faith that they can simply choose not to acknowledge whatever science tosses at them. My take on that is... OK!  Just as long as they're not trying to cover up my eyes, then there's no problem!
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Cyborg Dragon
Dragonstar
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 336
Location: Wichita Kansas
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| Posted: Wed 20 Jun 2007 16:58 Post subject: |
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| Have any articles there been published in peer-reviewed journals? |
I don't think so, and the site again seems to explain why as I've gathered.
Intelligent design and Creationism constantly gets tossed out by the courts, colleges, and science institutions so no wonder, the colleges would never want to public a paper challenging evolution nor would they want any exploration on creationism in places like the classroom because they believe it doesn't belong in the world of science and only in the world of faith in which they wish to not have any resources to explore creationism, as so how the accusation from the ICR and other creationist groups go.
We can't know what is true without all the possibilities of the origion of life thoroughly explored by science.
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Iseathielos Adismal, the green, blue, and yellow Dragon. This Dragon is me and what I believe myself to be, it is reality for me. |
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