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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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 Posted: Thu 27 Mar 2008 6:45 Post subject: |
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I feel the issue closer at hand is actually that the motive for a crime is too distracting and shouldn't really have any impact on what the penalty would be. The exception is murder though, and "premeditation" isn't necessarily interchangeable with "hate". The reason that first degree murder is more harshly punishable than second-degree is because a first-degree killer is more likely to kill again if not adequately dealt with. But the problem with hate-crime stuff is that it makes some first-degree murders MORE punishable than other first-degree murders, and that doesn't quite click with me.  Certainly racism (just to pick one example) can be useful when labeled as a motive when it comes to determining whether or not the criminal is actually guilty, but to put in a harsher sentence because of that? I don't get it.
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gcdm
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Joined: 24 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Thu 03 Apr 2008 18:38 Post subject: |
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What Au..err Boondox mean is hate crimes is considering race, ie white kill black...thats still putting people in a group.
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Ragnarok
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| Posted: Thu 03 Apr 2008 19:56 Post subject: |
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How does that relate to "not considering us all humans"?
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boondoxjuggalo
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Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue 08 Apr 2008 17:40 Post subject: |
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| Ragnarok wrote: |
| How does that relate to "not considering us all humans"? |
by the fact of killing another human of a diffrent race or color would cause some ppl to belive them a diffrent species something to keep away from.
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Ragnarok
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| Posted: Tue 08 Apr 2008 18:15 Post subject: |
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| boondoxjuggalo wrote: |
| Ragnarok wrote: |
| How does that relate to "not considering us all humans"? |
by the fact of killing another human of a diffrent race or color would cause some ppl to belive them a diffrent species something to keep away from. |
You'll need to elaborate further. I'm still not understanding any of that.
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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed 09 Apr 2008 7:37 Post subject: |
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| boondoxjuggalo wrote: |
| by the fact of killing another human of a diffrent race or color would cause some ppl to belive them a diffrent species something to keep away from. |
Yes this is true. But there's nothing "inhuman" about murder itself; humans are the most murderous animals on the planet. Same thing with feeling hostility towards someone who is different from the majority. Humans have a natural instinct that tells them to conform to one another to flourish as a species; it's at the very core of our evolution. This is why noncompliant "freaks" such as myself are looked down upon, and it's also why people judge each other based on appearances—the assumption (and therefore the problematic fallacy) is that if someone merely LOOKS different significantly, then they ARE different significantly.
But the argument presented is still flawed. Not that I disagree or anything, I'm just puzzled over the reasons here. If a human went out and illegally killed a wild animal (maybe killing a deer out of hunting season, or murdering a pet), would that be construed as a hate crime under the legislation? After all, the victim here would be someone who really genuinely IS inhuman!  The answer of course is no; hate crimes are only deemed committed by one human being against another of different race. Species doesn't enter into this.
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Ragnarok
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| Posted: Wed 09 Apr 2008 9:12 Post subject: |
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| Hyraxylos wrote: |
| hate crimes are only deemed committed by one human being against another of different race. Species doesn't enter into this. |
Even then, that's wrong. Hate crimes are when people kill people of other groups because they are of that group. If a white person killed a black during a robbery (for example), then that wouldn't be a hate crime. If, however, the same white person killed the same black person, but this time, because the victim was black and it could be shown to be the case that that was the motivation, then hate crime statutes could apply.
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Hyraxylos
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed 09 Apr 2008 13:38 Post subject: |
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I'm going to have to disagree with something here.
| Quote: |
| If a white person killed a black during a robbery (for example), then that wouldn't be a hate crime. |
Yes it would. That would definitely be prosecuted as a hate crime. When people cry persecution irrationally (as they often do these days), they don't truly look the details over; instead they see immediately that the two parties are different colors and immediately label it as "hate".
| Quote: |
| If, however, the same white person killed the same black person, but this time, because the victim was black and it could be shown to be the case that that was the motivation, then hate crime statutes could apply. |
Again, I only agree with this statement here so long as they use the presence of the motive as just that: a motive--i.e. a means of declaring something first-degree murder instead of second-degree. But beyond that this doesn't make any sense. Why would the identity of the motive have an impact on what the charges would be? That's insinuating that it's a crime merely to BE racist, and I say that's unjust because... how would you go about enforcing that? Punish people for merely thinking certain things? I'm not even defending racism here; it is a form of hatred and therefore my spiritual teachings demand I oppose it, but it's not the government's job to butt in here. This is a case to be settled between two parties of conscious people, not between people and the System.
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