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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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 Posted: Fri 31 Aug 2007 10:56 Post subject: |
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| Syrobe wrote: |
| Ragnarok wrote: |
| On a similar note, however, I don't think professors who expect the students to figure out everything themselves are good at their job, either, especially in the introductory-level courses. In those, I think it's better for the professors to explain things as thoroughly as they can, since the material is all (or mostly) new, and the students often have little or no background in that area. In the more advanced courses, however, when the students already have some knowledge of the field and how things work, then it's reasonable to expect them to know enough to ask valid questions or figure out at least some of the material on their own. |
I do agree with you on the professors note, but that in itself is not an argument against the opinion that who do not have that attitude, should leave or be forced to leave University. In my opinion, also the fesh-ones need that attitude. As a professor I do understand the lack of knowledge they have (as should other professors) but that leaves the statement unattacked. |
I was making more of a side point there than anything. As for the statement itself, after some more thought, I do, to an extent, disagree with that as well. Using myself as an example, as an undergrad student, there are some classes which I HAVE to take, but have no real interest in (Just using the a few of the general education requirements as an example, there are: Hawaiian Studies, anthropology/history/religion, biology, and at least one physical sciences course; the arts and sciences majors have language requirements, and engineering students need programming), in addition to some classes that are relevant to my major as a whole, but not to the area that I want to specialize in. In some of those classes, I'd probably count as one of your "people without an academic attitude," simply because I'm not particularly interested in those classes. In the classes that are more closely related to what I'm going to be doing, however, I am far more engaged, willing to engage with the professors, etc. If the university throws some irrelevant classes in along with the relevant ones, I don't think it counts against the students if they don't care very much about the irrelevant ones.
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Ahndeleck
Dragonstar
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Fri 31 Aug 2007 12:51 Post subject: |
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I would like to point out that college and university is actually only an option to all these students. While one must get out of highschool, one doesn't need to graduate from a college or university to make a decent life of things out in the world. Granted there are a ton of people in the universities of the world that might be better off doing something more constructive with their time, I might be one of them who knows. One thing that pretty much all of those students have in common though is that they al paid for the service of being talked to by someone that (is suposed to) understands the material. They didn't have to pay for it. People like that I have always thought that if they want to spend the money for it, let them, they earned the right to be there even if they take anything from it or not. I just wish they didn't have to make the class more challenging for the rest of us because they monopolize the instructor. and thats why I tend to keep things to myself durring the class and wait till everyone is done there so I can talk with the professor on the side and not waste anyone else's time (and money since they are paying for it)
Something that might be a helpful service that the universities could offer, though I wouldn't expect them to do it, would be counsoleing students on their progress. Especially if its been very poor thus far and maybe a vocational school would be a better choice for them. That could help some students get to where they might end up doing better, and would free up some class time/room/intelligence. Of course I don't expect them to do that since it would be money walking out their door. They do like money it seems. Sad they don't care about their students as much as their tuition... Or maybe thats just around where I am at. Hard to tell for certain.
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Syrobe
Founder
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 596
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| Posted: Fri 31 Aug 2007 14:27 Post subject: |
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| Ragnarok wrote: |
| If the university throws some irrelevant classes in along with the relevant ones, I don't think it counts against the students if they don't care very much about the irrelevant ones. |
I wonder if those classes really are irrelevant or if they seem irrelevant at the time. I do not know how it is in your country, but our universities (at least the ones I have been working at) simply do not have the time or money to throw in any irrelevant courses.
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Ragnarok
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Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Fri 31 Aug 2007 14:43 Post subject: |
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| Syrobe wrote: |
| Ragnarok wrote: |
| If the university throws some irrelevant classes in along with the relevant ones, I don't think it counts against the students if they don't care very much about the irrelevant ones. |
I wonder if those classes really are irrelevant or if they seem irrelevant at the time. I do not know how it is in your country, but our universities (at least the ones I have been working at) simply do not have the time or money to throw in any irrelevant courses. |
To pick a few of the gen.ed. requirements: Biology 101 required for all majors (physics, EE, ME, CEE, English, et. al.), Hawaiian Studies required for all majors, history or anthropology or religion (at least they give us a choice on this one) for all majors, some physical science course (Physics, Chemistry, Astronomy, things like that) required for all majors... Yes, some of our required classes really are irrelevant. If I'm designing roads, or machines, or working in chemistry, biology or English, why (for example) is a college course in human development (Anthropology) at all relevant?
On the flip side, though, I feel sorry for the professors and PhD candidates who teach those classes. They get stuck with people who really don't want to be there, but have to be in order to graduate.
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Celtore
Dragonstar
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 264
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun 02 Sep 2007 6:05 Post subject: |
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In any teaching/learning situation, learning styles and individual personalities should also be considered. Some people learn by watching, others by doing, and still others need detailed examples in order to teach themselves.
Not everyone is naturally outspoken, so asking a question in class can be somewhat difficult for the individual. Or, there could be others like me who tend to just get nervous for some reason when speaking in front of others, and because of this, have trouble gathering their thoughts and may sometimes stutter. Since I know I have this problem, I keep to myself during class, and then email the professors with my questions.
I do agree that those who are obviously only there to party, goof off, and get spoonfed their degrees should be given the boot. It's unfair to those of us who ARE there to learn. |
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Rayadragon
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 264
Location: Somewhere between reality and imagination
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| Posted: Tue 04 Sep 2007 10:37 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I wonder if those classes really are irrelevant or if they seem irrelevant at the time. I do not know how it is in your country, but our universities (at least the ones I have been working at) simply do not have the time or money to throw in any irrelevant courses |
Here it's probably a little of both. It's probably good to have experience in areas that you're not intending to focus on, but by the same token it seems to add more time in getting your degree. I finished in 4 years, which is suppost to be how long it takes. The only reason I was able to finish that quickly is because I had a semester's worth of "irrelevant" classes transfered in from high school (all of my english and liturature classes, a couple of Spanish classes that counted for my speech requirement). This freed up more time to take the necessary classes in the semester that they should be taken in. In some classes friends of mine had to delay a semester because of the registration process, which meant that they had to delay the following 2 classes by that semester, and so on.
By keeping the students at the university longer, they can get more money from them for living space, food, and tuition. It would certainly be a big argument about adding additional classes, even if they have to add a few faculty to do it.
| Quote: |
| On the flip side, though, I feel sorry for the professors and PhD candidates who teach those classes. They get stuck with people who really don't want to be there, but have to be in order to graduate. |
Granted, my experience is way less than Syrobe's, but it was far more difficult to teach to a class full of non-majors who don't care than to a class full of pre-medical students who at least cared if they thought it was going to be on the MCATs.
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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Mon 17 Sep 2007 8:05 Post subject: |
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Here's the case with me... if I were to somehow find myself attending a university in which there was only a certain variety of choice to go about learning and working, and my methods weren't tolerated, being kicked out certainly wouldn't be the issue.
I'd just leave. What the heck would I be doing there anyway?
But unfortunately it was public school that I clashed with, and so kicking me out wasn't a legal option; it isn't a crime to be a radical ADHDer with a bizarre condition of being LITERALLY UNABLE to take notes. All I could do was explain how it worked.
I never take notes from textbooks or something already written down. What's the point? I can carry a book around with me and read what someone else already wrote.
And I can't take notes on lectures because I can't write and pay attention to someone speaking at the same time. I'd have to ask the teacher to repeat over and over, thereby pissing off the rest of the class, or I'd have to bring a tape recorder which would freak out the school (lots of idiots at my high school).
So I had to FORCE my way through. I battled teachers who tried to grade me on the condition of my notebooks (organization = nonexistent) or whether I was taking notes. It wasn't enough that I LEARNED THE MATERIAL and GOT THE PROBLEMS RIGHT; the stupid system had to PUNISH me for being an oddball! Fortunately my college isn't like that at all.
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Celtore
Dragonstar
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 264
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Tue 18 Sep 2007 19:02 Post subject: |
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| Oh geez...I have the same problem with taking notes unless I can physically see them and copy them. But in high school, my teachers didn't force me to take notes unless they were visible on the board, and the only time I was graded for my notebook was in 8th grade algebra. In college, though, my professors are constantly yelling at me to take notes, and my English teacher will LECTURE me in the middle of class on how important it is to take notes, even though I can repeat word for word exactly what he said to me. |
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