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aciddragon
Dragonstar
Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 28
Location: Somewhere between here and there
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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 Posted: Tue 13 Nov 2007 18:05 Post subject: |
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| aciddragon wrote: |
| http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/news/economy/poverty_survey/ I guess you don't know any of these people... |
What's your point? If you're trying to argue that the government should take care of those below the poverty line (which, in many cases, it does, through food stamp programs, medicaid, medicare, etc), then that's a completely different issue, and one unrelated to how people in prison are treated.
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To win against an opponent stronger than yourself, you must not be weaker than that opponent. - Takamachi Nanoha |
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aciddragon
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Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 28
Location: Somewhere between here and there
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| Posted: Wed 14 Nov 2007 19:06 Post subject: |
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My point is this: Why are prisoners who have commited crimes against others living better than ANY law abiding citizens who work for what they have/get? Prisoners/inmates live tax-free. In fact, they are supported by the taxes we pay! They no longer have to earn a living. Its given to them. I don't see why inmates should live better than anyone else in the US. They are in prison for a REASON. They have commited crimes such as: murder, rape, child molestation, robbery... All these things they have done which may have ruined the lives of others, and they are handed everything they will ever need without having to do anything other than commit a crime. Prisons have become an easy break for criminals. They may or may not have anything before they go to prison, but once they're there they have it made. I say that prisoners should HAVE to work to live just like everyone else. If a prisoner refuses to work, then he shouldn't get food, new clothing, a hot shower... Just like if we were to refuse to work. Yes there are things like food stamps, welfare and all thet. You have to meet certain conditions to qualify for this assistance whereas inmates do not. As far as that goes, there are MANY US citizens that live worse than inmates and do not qualify for assistance. Not to mention the fact that after 2 years of recieving welfare, you are no longer eligable to reciave further assistance. Prisoners are fed, cared for, etc. for their ENTIRE SENTENCE which can be as long as 30 years or more. People who work for what they have and work to support their families have to pay taxes and these are used to coddle prisoners. I don't belive that would fall under cruel and unusual punishment due to the fact that EVERYONE has to do it outside of prison.
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Ragnarok
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Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Wed 14 Nov 2007 22:56 Post subject: |
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| aciddragon wrote: |
| My point is this: Why are prisoners who have commited crimes against others living better than ANY law abiding citizens who work for what they have/get? |
Because as prisoners, they are in state custody and are, therefore, protected by the Constitution, more specifically, by the Eighth Amendment, which ensures that despite their imprisonment, they are treated well.
Also, who defines what "living better" is? To present a couple extreme examples, pretty much anyone lives better than someone in a vegetative state. Do we remove prisoners' brain stems? Most people live better than a quadraplegic, do we then sever prisoners' spinal cords? Same for those with various forms of dementia, other physical or mental abnormalities, those suffering from diseases such as diabetes or AIDS, etc.
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| Prisoners/inmates live tax-free. |
In that they are not required to pay for their inprisonment. Requiring such, if memory serves, has been found unconstitutional.
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| In fact, they are supported by the taxes we pay! |
True, though if prisons weren't funded, they'd be out on the streets. I, believe it or not, prefer it this way.
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| They no longer have to earn a living. |
If you can call being kept in a box living.
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| Its given to them. I don't see why inmates should live better than anyone else in the US. |
I'd argue that the loss of their freedoms is more than enough to set them well behind everyone else.
Put another way, if, as you say, people in prison really are so well off, why is it that you don't see every person in poverty scrambling to find ways in?
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| They are in prison for a REASON. They have commited crimes such as: murder, rape, child molestation, robbery... All these things they have done which may have ruined the lives of others, and they are handed everything they will ever need without having to do anything other than commit a crime. |
Confinement is a punishment. Providing the elements necessary for survival are mandated by the Constitution.
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| Prisons have become an easy break for criminals. They may or may not have anything before they go to prison, but once they're there they have it made. |
Then why do people fight so desperately to stay out, and once confined, so desperately to get out? If it really were such a fun and easy place, why don't people want to stay there?
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| I say that prisoners should HAVE to work to live just like everyone else. If a prisoner refuses to work, then he shouldn't get food, new clothing, a hot shower... Just like if we were to refuse to work. |
There is absolutely no way to withhold food, drink, clothing or even showers from prisoners (the last would aid the spread of disease, so that'd be the last thing a prison would want to do) without violating the Eighth Amendment.
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| Yes there are things like food stamps, welfare and all thet. You have to meet certain conditions to qualify for this assistance whereas inmates do not. As far as that goes, there are MANY US citizens that live worse than inmates and do not qualify for assistance. |
How, exactly are they living worse that inmates? Packed two, three, or four to a cell, confined in that box for years on end? Would you willingly trade your life for that?
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| Not to mention the fact that after 2 years of recieving welfare, you are no longer eligable to reciave further assistance. |
Haven't been able to confirm that yet, so I'll let it go.
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| Prisoners are fed, cared for, etc. for their ENTIRE SENTENCE which can be as long as 30 years or more. |
Again, as required by the Eighth Amendment.
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| People who work for what they have and work to support their families have to pay taxes and these are used to coddle prisoners. |
Packing them into confinement facilities is hardly coddling.
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| I don't belive that would fall under cruel and unusual punishment due to the fact that EVERYONE has to do it outside of prison. |
What would? Making prisoners pay taxes? On what? Income? They don't have any. Purchases? They don't make any.
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Rayadragon
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 264
Location: Somewhere between reality and imagination
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| Posted: Thu 15 Nov 2007 13:08 Post subject: |
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| Not to mention the fact that after 2 years of recieving welfare, you are no longer eligable to reciave further assistance. |
I was able to find a bit about this. It appears to vary from state to state, but most have adapted a 60 month (5-yr) limitation on welfare, although exemptions within states (those with children or are caring for a disable relative, or those who are activly working but still below the poverty line).
http://www.urban.org/publications/900769.html
I'm something in the middle on the road on this. While cable tv isn't exactly a necessity, I don't see how having a huge library of books is exactly different from having the public library at your disposal. Beyond that, I agree with the comments other posters have been making. We've taken away their freedom to chose to live how they want to. They can't pay for a home they don't have. They can't pay for clothes that they can't go out and buy. They can't pay for a movie at a theater that they can't go to. At the same time, they don't have to be tortured or denied the basic human rights. If we were to do that, we would really be no different than them.
For all that you've been arguing this point, aciddragon, I can't remember whether or not you've answered the flip question. If you think prison living is that great, why don't you do something to wind up in there? Would you chose to live in prison with all of its amenities or would you chose to make your own way in the world, knowing that it would be difficult at times and that you might not have "everything" at your beck and call?
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Celtore
Dragonstar
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 264
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun 02 Dec 2007 2:31 Post subject: |
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I'll post more on this later, since it's so late, but here goes:
Prisoners, in some ways, DO live better than those free persons living below the poverty line. I agree that prisoners should be given their basic needs, seeing as per their incarceration, they have lost the ability to attain these basic needes themselves. HOWEVER, luxuries such as TV, books, college degrees, junk food/desserts etc. should be EARNED.
Perhaps a prison could introduce a system of allowing the well-behaved prisoners to work inside a prison and earn their wages to spend on such luxuries. For example, someone has behaved exceptionally well in prison, so he/she is allowed to work somewhere inside the prison for a small bit of pay. After working in this area of the prison, should the prisoner still be exhibiting good behavior, he/she would be allowed to "start his/her own business" from inside the prison. Someone who is good with his/her hands might make a good carpenter or furniture builder. The prison would take a majority of the profits from the sales of that prisoner's product, while the prisoner earns a little to buy something he wants.
Not only would this keep prisoners from receiving every luxury free gratis, but it would also allow them an avenue in which they have the skills and the knowledge to perform a job once they're out of prison.
As for college degrees - Similar to the merit system above, except prisoners have to pay a little for said degree out of the wages they earn while working.
Anyway, this is just my take on the situation. |
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