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Silver Dragon Breath dragon forums
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Dragoneyes
Dragonstar
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Great Lake State, Michigan,U.S.A.
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 Posted: Tue 19 Feb 2008 22:00 Post subject: |
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You know I went to work and stewed over this and then spoke with a friend that is a police officer. He said that our society does not teach our children that any action has consequences. If Jimmy steals a car it's ok cause he is under age and doesn't know any better so we slap his hand and let him go. A week later Jimmy robs a store. It's only his first conviction so we put him on probation. Jimmy joins a gang and is involved in a drive by. He is convicted but due to overcrowding, we let him get out early. The cycle never ends. The death penalty if anything is a deterrent. It might make someone think twice about killing someone. Some inmates say they have it better in prison than they do on the outside. Part of what is wrong with our country is bleeding heart liberals, they always feel sorry after the fact. Instead of crying about the death penalty go out and start programs that might keep a kid out of the gangs. I saw Dateline NBC and they had a story about convicted murderers that are running their gangs from prison. They still can have someone killed without leaving their cell. What kind of message is that sending to these young kids? Hey it is a status symbol to kill someone and go to prison. If we start invoking the death penalty it might end some of this. Those of you that think the only answer is money you are blind to the bigger picture. Our prison system is bad. Overcrowding, under staffed, and with more violent crimes on the rise we are not rehabilitating anyone these days. They are returning to prison each time for worse crimes and we still let them out. I think the death penalty is the least of our worries...
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Tue 19 Feb 2008 22:38 Post subject: |
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The fact that you're not addressing any of the questions that are being raised regarding your posts speaks volumes about the soundness of your arguments. If you intend on being taken seriously, engage in discussion instead of throwing out point after point and ignoring the responses.
| Dragoneyes wrote: |
| You know I went to work and stewed over this and then spoke with a friend that is a police officer. He said that our society does not teach our children that any action has consequences. |
That's a failure of parenting, not the legal system. If the only reason why someone does something is because it's illegal, then I don't think that person is moral or ethical.
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| If Jimmy steals a car it's ok cause he is under age and doesn't know any better so we slap his hand and let him go. A week later Jimmy robs a store. It's only his first conviction so we put him on probation. Jimmy joins a gang and is involved in a drive by. He is convicted but due to overcrowding, we let him get out early. The cycle never ends. |
Nice hypothetical. Can you back it up with real evidence, or is it just a fun little story to make people sympathize with your position?
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| The death penalty if anything is a deterrent. |
See my first post in this thread. If you can dispute that, do so.
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| It might make someone think twice about killing someone. |
Or it might not. Back up the assertion.
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| Some inmates say they have it better in prison than they do on the outside. |
Documentation?
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| Part of what is wrong with our country is bleeding heart liberals, they always feel sorry after the fact. |
Ad hominem and irrelevant to whether or not the death penalty should be used.
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| Instead of crying about the death penalty go out and start programs that might keep a kid out of the gangs. |
Or do both. They're not mutually exclusive.
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| I saw Dateline NBC and they had a story about convicted murderers that are running their gangs from prison. They still can have someone killed without leaving their cell. |
Which is a failing of the prisons.
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| What kind of message is that sending to these young kids? Hey it is a status symbol to kill someone and go to prison. If we start invoking the death penalty it might end some of this. |
Much supposition, many assertions, no evidence.
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| Those of you that think the only answer is money you are blind to the bigger picture. |
Who said that?
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| Our prison system is bad. Overcrowding, under staffed, and with more violent crimes on the rise we are not rehabilitating anyone these days. They are returning to prison each time for worse crimes and we still let them out. |
A failure of the prisons and judicial system. In my view, there are a lot of things which could be done to reduce the prison population.
There used to be a thread here on legalizing currently-illegal drugs, but it seems to have been deleted. In any case, such an action would remove all non-violent drug users from the prison system, freeing up more space. If you'd like to debate the merits of that proposal, though, start up another thread. It'd be off topic here.
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| I think the death penalty is the least of our worries... |
Irrelevant to whether or not the death penalty should be allowed.
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Dragoneyes
Dragonstar
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Great Lake State, Michigan,U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed 20 Feb 2008 5:00 Post subject: Re: Death Penalty |
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| Ragnarok wrote: |
| RamenDemon wrote: |
| I think it's unethical, cruel, and evil but i still allow it. It's because we spend thousands of dollars just for the basic needs of every single inmates. |
It's unethical, cruel and evil, but full speed ahead anyway? Saving money justifies unethical, cruel and evil treatment?
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think using the death penalty on special cases might dissuade potential criminals,murderers, and thieves into a life of crime. Really, just hire some people who ain't sqeamish and take an axe to a couple hundre- err 2 people.  I want to know your opinions or debates on this matter. |
There is no evidence to suggest that the death penalty has a deterrent effect. This chart, which compares the murder rates in DP and non-DP states indicates that DP states have higher murder rates. Even in the studies which claim to show that it has a deterrent effect (of between 3 and 30-something fewer homicides per execution) have to deal with the fact that homicide rates are variable year-to-year and there are very few executions carried out in any given year. |
Very pretty chart and I like the colors. Anyone can make-up a website these days and make it look the way they want it. Apparently you must not watch any T.V. because they have al lot of programs on about this subject, infact MSNBC has one on prisons and issues about it every week. I believe it is called Lock-up.
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Now for my own views. As you can probably tell, I'm against it, for a couple very simple reasons.
1: There is no deterrent effect, and the death penalty may even act as a negative deterrent (i.e. increases the unwanted behavior).
Lets think logical now, If I kill someone and they kill me Hum, or If I kill someone and live....
2: Unlike life sentences, there's no way to reverse an execution. There have been cases where people on death row have been found to be innocent, especially with the advent of DNA testing. They were still waiting to be executed, so they managed to get released, but what if they had been executed before that? You can release a wrongfully-imprisoned person, but you can't unexecute someone. |
You are wrong here, It happens a lot. Watch this Lock-up Show. One guy on the show had it changed to life in prison so he could see his kids, but after and infraction and they wouldn't let him see them he asked to be put back on death row. The death penalty takes a long time to execute (LOL) years in most cases, so prisoners can have it appealed and the ones that don't want to die try and for the most part get it changed. The other thing is that how many executions happen every month? Due you know? I watched the show and Florida and Texas being death penalty states 2 a month. Not mass executions like you would tend to believe .....You see I can say the same thing prove it and you will say it back. I can piss farther than you...Daed argument as far as I'm concerned....
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Wed 20 Feb 2008 9:29 Post subject: Re: Death Penalty |
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| Dragoneyes wrote: |
| Very pretty chart and I like the colors. Anyone can make-up a website these days and make it look the way they want it. |
Ah, yes, because the FBI makes up its numbers.
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| Apparently you must not watch any T.V. because they have al lot of programs on about this subject, infact MSNBC has one on prisons and issues about it every week. I believe it is called Lock-up. |
What subject does that show talk about? The merits of the death penalty? If so, what arguments does it use? If not, then explain what it has to do with the death penalty.
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| You are wrong here, It happens a lot. |
What is "it"? A deterrent effect? If so, you'll be able to find and present information on why and how and to what degree it acts as a deterrent.
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| Watch this Lock-up Show. One guy on the show had it changed to life in prison so he could see his kids, but after and infraction and they wouldn't let him see them he asked to be put back on death row. |
Losing what made him want life in prison instead of death, then going back to death. It's quite simple to understand.
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| The death penalty takes a long time to execute (LOL) years in most cases, so prisoners can have it appealed and the ones that don't want to die try and for the most part get it changed. The other thing is that how many executions happen every month? Due you know? I watched the show and Florida and Texas being death penalty states 2 a month. Not mass executions like you would tend to believe |
Where did I say anything about mass executions? Setting up straw men to attack really doesn't make you look good.
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| .....You see I can say the same thing prove it and you will say it back. I can piss farther than you...Daed argument as far as I'm concerned.... |
You've still offered zero evidence for supporting the death penalty.
Also, since there are still a number of questions outstanding, I'll begin listing them below my posts. Please answer them as well.
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| DragonMancer wrote: |
| You murder: you should be put to death. |
Why not life in prison?
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| You rape (and this goes for any serious crimes of sexual harrasment): you get given to labs for experimentation (and don't get let out until you die) |
Define "serious crimes of sexual harassment." Then explain why you think turning them into lab rats is ethical.
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| You thieve: you have your hand cut off. |
Under all circumstances?
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| With the thieve thing you still have to serve your time in prison. |
Sure, why stop with mutilation?
I'd also like to ask a question for clarification. When you say murder, is that in the lay sense to refer simply to a homicide, or murder in the legal sense? |
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gcdm
Dragonstar
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 221
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| Posted: Wed 20 Feb 2008 14:13 Post subject: |
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ooohhhhh, i'm getting confused....
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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed 20 Feb 2008 17:51 Post subject: |
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| gcdm wrote: |
| ooohhhhh, i'm getting confused.... |
That always happens with controversial debate. 
I've just recalled another pro-execution argument, but it's just as clumsy and unsatisfactory as the thing about the money. :P It's if you capture a spy during a war and you really can't trust the security of a prison to prevent them from sending information. But it's still not very much because we're not in an official war right now.
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Wed 20 Feb 2008 18:10 Post subject: |
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| Hyraxylos wrote: |
| I've just recalled another pro-execution argument, but it's just as clumsy and unsatisfactory as the thing about the money. :P It's if you capture a spy during a war and you really can't trust the security of a prison to prevent them from sending information. But it's still not very much because we're not in an official war right now. |
Military prison and solitary confinement or a POW camp. Besides, under the Geneva Conventions, even a spy is in a somewhat protected class.
Article 5 of the Fourth Geneva Convention reads:
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Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.
In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity, and in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be. |
Which is, I admit, a legal mess of terms, but I tried to bold the important parts. In short, a spy can be held incommunicado, but is still protected by the provisions of the Geneva Conventions.
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RamenDemon
Dragonstar
Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: stranded on the ocean in a tiny wooden boat with a laptop. oh noes it broke...
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| Posted: Fri 22 Feb 2008 21:01 Post subject: |
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ok ok i might had sounded heartless when i mentioned saving money by killing people... but i take it back. well i guess ragnarok won me over. life in sentence is in many ways better than the death penalty.
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