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Silver Dragon Breath dragon forums
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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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 Posted: Fri 21 Mar 2008 6:04 Post subject: |
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| Dragoneyes wrote: |
| I would feel paying for someone like them would be prolonging the agony for those who they harmed. |
As Ragnarok said before, we should legalize drugs since the government has no true moral right to determine what substance a person chooses to put into their body. As of now, the percentage of Americans in prison is ONE PERCENT, higher than ever before, and something needs to be done about that.
As for “prolonging agony”, that’s just sad. Too bad though. It’s their choice whether or not they choose to salvage what they can and get on with life.
| Dragoneyes wrote: |
| I hear a lot of people like you say the same thing but maybe if it happened to you your tune might change. No it has not happened to me but If my son or daughter was killed by either one of those monsters I'd want revenge or retribution. I'd probably pull the switch myself. |
I can’t speak with certainty for others, but I do know that I myself am above such feelings, and judging by how he’s argued this I have faith Ragnarok would stand firm as well. I myself am no longer even capable of feeling hatred of other living things, thanks to my meditation over the years. I don’t even remember what it felt like anymore, and I don’t miss it at all. Hate is the ultimate weakness in humanity; nothing productive has come of it and it will always betray those who most think they can trust it.
So cast it down as I have. Shove it out of the way and let logic and reasoning take over instead. You won’t miss it either. Hateful revenge is the one urge that can NEVER be satiated. You can harm someone out of anger and feel relieved, but hate doesn’t work that way and still has no place in anything that has to do with living beings, much less American law. You speak of killing someone in prison and what would that serve? How would it benefit you? If money is the issue then that’s already been addressed! What else is left? Would you (hypothetically) actually waste your life moping about feeling hateful towards someone that you only think (and might be wrong about) has murdered someone close to you and has already been punished? Would execution even satisfy you? Would you torture them first? If they were executed, would you daydream about their soul burning in eternal torment and smile to yourself? For your sake, as not only a fellow person but as a fellow organism, I truly hope you wouldn’t.
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Raven
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 660
Location: Lost in his mind...
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| Posted: Tue 25 Mar 2008 12:57 Post subject: |
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| The definition of "right" is a very simple thing, abide by the law.Period. |
That's a horrible definition of right.
I am in favor of the death penalty myself, but not as an enforced punishment. I believe the courts should be able to sentence as far as life in prison without the possibility of parole and if the convicted chooses he may opt for death instead. This serves a few purposes. First, anyone who's actually innocent isn't going to say "please kill me" they'll wait and try to get the sentence reduced. Second, it would reduce the waiting line for the death penalty. It can be enforced immediately after the prisoner has made the decision.
Perhaps it's not best to call this a death penalty, than.
And going back to the issue of money I would like to mention that it is a perfectly reasonable argument, but there are far more effective ways to save money on prisons than by enforcing a death penalty.
_________________
The Lichen grows slowly, atop of a rock.
It doesn't think, it scarcely feels,
But mightn't it be somehow greater than we? |
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Icedheart
Dragonstar
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2301
Location: A place called my 'own' paradise
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| Posted: Tue 25 Mar 2008 13:13 Post subject: |
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My opinions on this subject matter:
1.) Sure, stated at the start that it might just be more cost effective it's still no reason to accept it as a penalty, think, many killers would of had incredably bad childhoods, they go on to kill as adults aswell as the younger children mab e nine and in there early teens who simply can't take any more sexual, verbal or physical abuse and aim to rid those who have made there life a living hell.
And those who attack strangers? mainly because they fear facing there attackers.
Many books about killers will not take there point of view, and the courts(who still consider the DP) never look back into there child hood, just as the two boys who killed young James are un-rightfully judged for there acts.
2.) Keeping an offender in a prison will teach them better, but think, this could support the act as they get away from there attackers.
3.) If there innocent? There have been many cases of the innocent being sentanced, and once this has passed and they have already passed on, just a little more of a deeper investigation will show they were innocent.
4.) Eye for an eye? (though i'm not Christian (i'm egnostic) ) Jesus has said something about this, that the world would be blind. It's true, if we saw it this way then where would we be? Give others a second chance.
Though i'm not against any of your opinions these are just some things that should really be considered!
And for me? Short and sweet. I don't really aggree, But for some cases, those who have been in prison for years and kill many more times, it might just possibly be an accepting for they have and probably will not learn there lesson...
There are books by an author called 'Carol Anne Davis' for adult killers, woman who kill, children who kill...etc.
Now i'm saying saying to go out and buy them but she does give good points and fair views!
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Their enchanting voices.Cry to the crystal moon.As light of silver, descends with grace.The wolves prowl restlessly.Calling to each other. |
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Raven
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 660
Location: Lost in his mind...
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| Posted: Tue 25 Mar 2008 13:44 Post subject: |
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| 3.) If there innocent? There have been many cases of the innocent being sentanced, and once this has passed and they have already passed on, just a little more of a deeper investigation will show they were innocent. |
"Many" is a bit of an exageration.
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| 4.) Eye for an eye? (though i'm not Christian (i'm egnostic) ) Jesus has said something about this, that the world would be blind. It's true, if we saw it this way then where would we be? Give others a second chance. |
And that would be Ghandi, but the point still stands.
_________________
The Lichen grows slowly, atop of a rock.
It doesn't think, it scarcely feels,
But mightn't it be somehow greater than we? |
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Dragoneyes
Dragonstar
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Great Lake State, Michigan,U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu 27 Mar 2008 21:16 Post subject: |
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Hydaxylos & Ragnarok both say basically to forgive and forget. Lets send this person to prison for the rest of their life and go on with their lives. Well it's not that simple. Most of these people will have influence over younger inmates that might get out and perform worse things that these lifers have taught them. I was watching this program on prisons and officers and even the inmates where saying that all prison does is make them better criminals. There is no rehabilitation or for most don't even regret their crimes. They wear it as a badge of honor. Unfortunately, our system for punishment is not putting the fear into the inmates so they don't fear coming back to prison. I still feel the death penalty should be reserved for only the most violent, most heinous, inmates in prison. Yes sometimes a first time murderer can be found innocent but most are not and will kill again if given the opportunity.
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Look into the eyes of the dragon and it will reveal your soul.... |
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Thu 27 Mar 2008 22:20 Post subject: |
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| Dragoneyes wrote: |
| Hydaxylos & Ragnarok both say basically to forgive and forget. |
No, I say there's no good reason to execute them, and the state shouldn't be in the business of assisting revenge killing.
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| Most of these people will have influence over younger inmates that might get out and perform worse things that these lifers have taught them. |
Show that it is only the people that you want executed who do this. It's a good argument for separating career criminals from the "rookies" but not necessarily for executing them.
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| I was watching this program on prisons and officers and even the inmates where saying that all prison does is make them better criminals. |
Prison, or various situations in the prison? I assume it's the latter, in which case someone should let the sociologists and criminologists in and see what can be done to prevent that from occurring. Again, however, you are straying from a death penalty argument to a prisons-in-general argument.
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| There is no rehabilitation or for most don't even regret their crimes. |
Again, though, are you talking about those sentenced to death, or people in prison in general?
This is also where my earlier suggestion of rehab and education/job training in prison comes in. Create opportunities for those in prison to become contributing members of society, as opposed to leaving them years out of touch in which case they have little to no job skills and are unemployable.
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| They wear it as a badge of honor. Unfortunately, our system for punishment is not putting the fear into the inmates so they don't fear coming back to prison. |
And yet again, talking about those who are in prison, not only those sentenced to death. You're also trying to argue that the death penalty is a deterrent, which I've already been shown to be false. Even if you disagree, unless you can provide some evidence to back up your position, your view cannot be taken to be correct.
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| I still feel the death penalty should be reserved for only the most violent, most heinous, inmates in prison. |
This, however, contradicts what you said earlier. "As long as I don't do ____, I'll be out in a few years" is a form of, as you put it, "not putting the fear into [them]." If you really wanted to try to scare them straight, everything would need to have the potential of being sentenced to death.
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| Yes sometimes a first time murderer can be found innocent but most are not and will kill again if given the opportunity. |
Could you back up the claim that "most...will kill again if given the opportunity"? I tried a few google searches, but didn't find anything to support the claim that there were many repeat offenders in the group of murderers who were released from prison.
Also, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the Davis case that I linked to on the previous page.
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To win against an opponent stronger than yourself, you must not be weaker than that opponent. - Takamachi Nanoha |
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Dragoneyes
Dragonstar
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Great Lake State, Michigan,U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu 27 Mar 2008 23:26 Post subject: |
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I'm not saying that mistakes where made. It was the corrupt police that was the problem. He had a jury convict him. But the prosecutor did his job a got a conviction. He only did what he was paid to do. As far as Mr. Davis he is probably black which is already a strike against him in the south. Unfortunately, we do not have the same justice system in the south.
As far as your views on this, I see you have made your decision so I guess if you want to support your actions then how about paying my share of taxes to keep your serial killers alive. I could sure use that money for far better things like feeding starving children or finding a cure for cancer....
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Look into the eyes of the dragon and it will reveal your soul.... |
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Thu 27 Mar 2008 23:42 Post subject: |
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| Dragoneyes wrote: |
| I'm not saying that mistakes where made. It was the corrupt police that was the problem. He had a jury convict him. But the prosecutor did his job a got a conviction. He only did what he was paid to do. As far as Mr. Davis he is probably black which is already a strike against him in the south. Unfortunately, we do not have the same justice system in the south. |
All of which are good reasons to oppose the death penalty as unfair.
| Quote: |
| As far as your views on this, I see you have made your decision so I guess if you want to support your actions then how about paying my share of taxes to keep your serial killers alive. I could sure use that money for far better things like feeding starving children or finding a cure for cancer.... |
All it would take to get me to change my mind is for you to present a solid argument that I can't tear to shreds. You're not even trying to argue facts with this.
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To win against an opponent stronger than yourself, you must not be weaker than that opponent. - Takamachi Nanoha |
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