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Silver Dragon Breath dragon forums
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dragonflame
Dragonstar
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 423
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 Posted: Fri 07 Nov 2008 7:00 Post subject: |
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| Ragnarok wrote: |
(2)H20+Energy-->(2)H2+O2 (You need to expend energy to split the water molecules)
(2)H2+O2+ Energy-->(2)H2O
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isn't it actually (2)H2+O2 -->(2)H2O + Energy? That is, if I listened correctly to the chemistry classes I've been taking xD (sorry Ragnarok, felt like I had to xD).
I didn't read all the pages of this topic (only the last 2) and I didn't read any of the information in the links listed but if I'm correct fuels used are CxHy (whereas x or y means a number, because this can vary). so it goes CxHy -> CO2 + H2o + Energy, where CO2 is our feared little enemy carbon dioxide (if I spelled that correctly xP). but that process also forms water (H2O). I've read the posts saying you need special stuff against the rust formed when using H2 (hydrogen) as a fuel but wouldn't that rust protection be needed in a normal car too then? |
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Ragnarok
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Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Fri 07 Nov 2008 10:14 Post subject: |
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| dragonflame wrote: |
| Ragnarok wrote: |
(2)H20+Energy-->(2)H2+O2 (You need to expend energy to split the water molecules)
(2)H2+O2+ Energy-->(2)H2O
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isn't it actually (2)H2+O2 -->(2)H2O + Energy? That is, if I listened correctly to the chemistry classes I've been taking xD (sorry Ragnarok, felt like I had to xD).
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More or less, but hydrogen and oxygen, unlike some other chemical compounds aren't all that reactive when mixed. Some reactions just require certain elements to be together and they'll react, but O2 and H2 can be mixed and not react. Some splitting/recombination would occur naturally, but not explosively, which is what an engine would need. To power an engine you'd need an ignition source to spark the explosive gas mixture, which would require more energy to be input.
Thinking back, I guess I should have written:
(2)H20+Energy-->(2)H2+O2
(2)H2+O2+ Energy (spark)-->(2)H2O + more energy (the explosive reaction requires a spark)
The point is that it's far less than a 100% efficient system.
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To win against an opponent stronger than yourself, you must not be weaker than that opponent. - Takamachi Nanoha |
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Namhias
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 1055
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| Posted: Fri 07 Nov 2008 15:48 Post subject: |
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| Ragnarok wrote: |
| To power an engine you'd need an ignition source to spark the explosive gas mixture, which would require more energy to be input. |
What you say is true, but that applies to most chemical processes. Almost every exothermic reaction has an activation energy, the power needed to start the reaction. It depends on the substance how much energy is required, but once it's started, it will continue.
To illustrate how this would look like on an energy scale, the total energy of the substance would look like this:
_____/\
............\______
(ignore dots)
The peak being the activation energy and the lower level is the amount of energy of the substance after the reaction. Because the energy has to go somewhere, it's usually emitted in the form heat.
Everything wants to get in a lower energy level on an atomic scale. |
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harrypottertew
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Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 105
Location: cant figure that out
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| Posted: Mon 26 Jan 2009 11:43 Post subject: |
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has anyone thought of using 190 proof moon shine in their cars? i hear that it saves gas and it's near free to manufacture in your back yard with compost.
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forever shall i be a dragon friend even though i have not met one. forever let the dragons live free |
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Namhias
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon 26 Jan 2009 16:19 Post subject: |
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Alcohol can be used as an alternative fuel, and it has been done on occasion. I definitely don't recommend it though. It's much more volatile and it can screw with a lot of systems in your engine, especially if you have a somewhat new car.
Also, if you distillate your own alcohol it has to be very pure, and you'd need a LOT. It's definitely not practical.
And I don't know about the compost thing... Alcohol is a liquid, I doubt you can use compost at all... (Perhaps rotting fruit might work but that's still definitely not practical.) |
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Ragnarok
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Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Mon 26 Jan 2009 16:29 Post subject: |
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| harrypottertew wrote: |
| has anyone thought of using 190 proof moon shine in their cars? i hear that it saves gas and it's near free to manufacture in your back yard with compost. |
Unless you're registered with the TTB/BATF, it's illegal, and even then, you need to render the alcohol undrinkable before it's actually legal. That said, it's not entirely uncommon, and is done commercially. E85, for example, is a blend of 15% gasoline and 85% ethanol.
While those do reduce the amount of gasoline required, it's also not quite as good as gasoline in terms of total energy capacity. It's cheaper, though, so the tradeoff isn't too bad.
As for making it yourself, well, once you get over the registration, purchasing everything you need to produce the stuff, securing a source of material, etc, then yeah, I guess it's not too bad of an option. On the other hand, it'd be considerably more difficult than just going to the gas station to fill up the tank.
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harrypottertew
Dragonstar
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 105
Location: cant figure that out
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| Posted: Sat 07 Feb 2009 9:10 Post subject: |
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you don't need to register to make your own moonshine because if you were making it for more than 10 people at a time then you would have to register with the gov. and state. but if you make it for your own personal reasons then you don't need to register it. i have read that you can run your car off total alcohol content.. i can tell you the book from were i have read if from but i don't have it with me right now. so technically speaking you don't need to register if it is for private useage.
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Ragnarok
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Joined: 27 Sep 2004
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Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Sat 07 Feb 2009 18:54 Post subject: |
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If you register, you get a tax credit. If not, you get nothing. With rules like that, who wouldn't register?
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