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Holy Smokes!!! Them gas prices!!
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Ragnarok
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PostPosted: Thu 15 May 2008 10:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Namhias wrote:
Hydrogen is not a fuel. It's a gas used to transfer power from one place to another, in other words, in order to create hydrogen, you have to put energy into it.


And if that gas is used to power a vehicle, it serves the same role that gas does, doesn't it? I don't think it's wrong to call hydrogen a fuel.

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I admit however that it's possible to fuse two hydrogen atoms to create one helium atom, which will produce insane amounts of power, but it will be a long while before fusion reactors will be built.


Seeing as how no current fusion test has been able to even come close to an energy output equal to its input (one of the best produced a peak of ~65% of its input energy), that's going to be a long time coming. My university's physics department had a guest lecturer come in a few years back, and he jokingly said that the fusion horizon has been "fifty years from now" ever since the mid 1900s. Smile
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Namhias
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PostPosted: Thu 15 May 2008 14:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragnarok wrote:
And if that gas is used to power a vehicle, it serves the same role that gas does, doesn't it? I don't think it's wrong to call hydrogen a fuel.


The term fuel in my eyes refers to power source, but I don't think you can call it that. I would agree with you if it were possible to "pump up" hydrogen, as is with oil. I think you can compare hydrogen gas more to a battery, then to gasoline.

I agree with you that it will be a long while before we can use fusion as a power source, I merely added it to be more complete. Laughing
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Ragnarok
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PostPosted: Thu 15 May 2008 17:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to go with the dictionary definition, which is considerably wider: "Fuel: Something consumed to produce energy."

Pedantic quibbles aside, I'm rather fond of hydrogen for cars, especially if its production is linked to a renewable source of energy such as wind, solar or wave power.

Similarly, electric cars are also of interest. One of the things I was going to look into when I have some time was to see how lightweight solar panels could be, as an electric vehicle with a solar panel seems to be a no-brainer, unless the extra weight is enough to produce problems. There was talk of being able to charge such a vehicle off of the home electric grid, and I know there are solar panels which can produce enough energy to meet that demand, so the only major remaining issues are weight and size.
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Namhias
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PostPosted: Fri 16 May 2008 16:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in favor of the hydrogen car too, it's way more efficient then an internal combustion car can ever be. It has great potential: You can create hydrogen from regular tap water, or almost any water that's not to badly polluted for that matter, and store it somewhere convenient. People wouldn't have to go to a gas station anymore. Since you only need electricity to produce hydrogen, you can use a wide variety of power sources, like solar panels on the top of your roof for instance. The technology is already available, there just aren't enough people buying the stuff yet, so prices are still sky high. If the oil companies are smart, they would invest in hydrogen, I truly think that's the future of transport.
Also, it would decrease CO2 emissions a lot if most people who got a car would install a hydrogen fuel cell.
I can keep on going about the benefits here, but I'll restrain myself. Laughing
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gcdm
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PostPosted: Fri 16 May 2008 17:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

in a 4 years it's gonna be $8 per gallon, then all hell will break lose >.=.<
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Dragons Creed
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PostPosted: Fri 16 May 2008 18:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Namhias wrote:
People wouldn't have to go to a gas station anymore. Since you only need electricity to produce hydrogen, you can use a wide variety of power sources, like solar panels on the top of your roof for instance.



That sounds like a great alternative. But I got a question. Would it have the same power as gasoline and diesel? For towing things such as trailers I mean.
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Ragnarok
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PostPosted: Fri 16 May 2008 18:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

gcdm wrote:
in a 4 years it's gonna be $8 per gallon, then all hell will break lose >.=.<


Sooner than that, it seems, though I'm not sure it'll be that much of a disaster. Alternatives always exist.

Dragons Creed wrote:
That sounds like a great alternative. But I got a question. Would it have the same power as gasoline and diesel? For towing things such as trailers I mean.


Overall output is more dependent on the engine design than the fuel it burns, so yes, a fuel cell engine could be designed to provide that power.
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Hyraxylos
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PostPosted: Sat 17 May 2008 14:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually a while back we (United States) were just about to start looking for an alternate source of fuel because oil was getting expensive. Unfortunately the Saudis caught on and lowered the price of oil so we threw a ton of research to the wind and forgot the whole thing.

*considers* At this point I should probably say something contemptible about my own government, but I can't think of anything nasty that hasn't been said dozens of times already. d'oh! I'll just add in that we really ought to start looking into solar power; that huge nuclear plant in the sky is important to the Earth for a very obvious reason and why we shouldn't leap at the chance to use it for more while we've got plenty of sunlight is beyond me. -_-
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