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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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 Posted: Tue 08 Jul 2008 15:03 Post subject: The TSW needs to be stopped. |
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This is a totally irrational rant with no real thought behind it, just thought I should say first. >.>
Our government has been getting just a bit out of hand for a while, and now we've shown the biggest alarm yet by putting missile defense systems in someone else's land without the permission of said someone else. To top it all off, it happens to be a country of my ancestry. Russia is getting outraged over this but it's not enough, so if anyone on this forum by wild chance has any connections to any European government, I'd like you to ask for a favor.
Please invade the Theocratic States of Whatever and overthrow our government. We don't have any money left, we don't have any common sense left, we don't know what's best for ourselves, and we're becoming too great of a threat to the rest of the world. After that's done you need to occupy us against our will until we agree to set up a functional democracy, complete with a constitution outlining our basic civil liberties and the right for everyone to vote. And more importantly, for the votes to COUNT.
Once the system is all set up, please allow Afghanistan, Iraq, the Czech Republic, Poland, and whatever other country we've taken over to vote in our presidential elections unless we actually pull out of those places. Write up our constitution so that it might be amended later in case anyone misses anything, and be sure to safeguard against corruptive two-party political systems that might try to butt in uninvited.
Finally we'll need an impressive patriotic-sounding name. I'm thinking something along the lines of "United States of America".
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
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Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jul 2008 15:14 Post subject: Re: The TSW needs to be stopped. |
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Leaving aside the issue of whether or not such a system is needed...
| Hyraxylos wrote: |
| by putting missile defense systems in someone else's land without the permission of said someone else. |
The Czech Republic is not Russian land. It is its own sovereign country, so they're free to make whatever deals with the US that they want.
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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 6:45 Post subject: Re: The TSW needs to be stopped. |
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| Ragnarok wrote: |
| The Czech Republic is not Russian land. It is its own sovereign country, so they're free to make whatever deals with the US that they want. |
I know they're an independent nation, but the radar did not have the permission of the Czechs to be put in there. The will of the government is, quite clearly, not the will of the people in this matter and no one there is pleased with what's happened. That's why I say it was against the permission of the Czech Republic. The people are more important than the government in EVERY nation and should be taken more into consideration on touchy issues like foreign-owned weaponry.
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Rayadragon
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 264
Location: Somewhere between reality and imagination
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 12:50 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I know they're an independent nation, but the radar did not have the permission of the Czechs to be put in there |
Am I reading the same article you are?
From the article: "The ministry issued the statement after U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice signed a deal Tuesday with her Czech counterpart, Karel Schwarzenberg, to place radar units for the system inside the borders of the Czech Republic"
This seems to imply it has the okay of the Czech republic. All the controversy comments that I'm reading are from the Russians, not from the Czechs.
| Quote: |
| The will of the government is, quite clearly, not the will of the people in this matter and no one there is pleased with what's happened. That's why I say it was against the permission of the Czech Republic. |
Again, the only people they quote in the article are from Russia and the US, no one from the Czech Republic was interviewed, so you can't really draw the conclusion that it's not the "will of the people." The "no one there is pleased..." goes back to my comment that the people who aren't pleased are the Russians.
That's not to say that the Czechs are happy with it, just that based only on what the article says you can't make the assumption that they're not happy.
| Quote: |
| Please invade the Theocratic States of Whatever and overthrow our government |
| Quote: |
| After that's done you need to occupy us against our will until we agree to set up a functional democracy, complete with a constitution outlining our basic civil liberties and the right for everyone to vote. |
Sorry if I see this as a bit of a contradiction... seems like us being invaded (or us invading someone else...) is the bad way to start off any democracy. Invasion and occupation don't seem much like obvious starts to a viable and fair government (again, cuts both ways).
| Quote: |
| and be sure to safeguard against corruptive two-party political systems that might try to butt in uninvited. |
I may be remembering this slightly wrong, but George Washington himself warned against this. He also willingly chose to limit himself to 2 terms as president to prevent a dictatorship/monarchy from being established. The thought's a good one, but until people learn to self-police themselves, having it enforced by an outside group will only cause resentment and an eventual breakdown of the system.
Then again, things could be worse. Instead of 2 parties we could have 1. We're able to have this conversation because of where we live and because we have the gurantee of freedom of speech (more or less) that allows us to voice disenting opinions without fear of incarceration or "removal."
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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:04 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| This seems to imply it has the okay of the Czech republic. All the controversy comments that I'm reading are from the Russians, not from the Czechs. |
Obviously their government was bribed by our government, because the Czech Republic I've come to know wouldn't honestly want any such thing. They want us to pull out and quit whining at Europe for not agreeing with us 100%, so please explain to me why the PEOPLE of the Czech Republic (NOT the government!) would possibly want American anti-missile stuff planted on their land and pointed at Russia. I mean France.  I mean Iran. Riiiiiight, Iran... 
For my next point I suppose I should be clear about something just in case there's anyone who doesn't quite understand the purpose of my "request". That thing about invading us? I was joking around. I'm well aware that nobody would be able to do to us what we did to Iraq, but still...
| Rayadragon wrote: |
| seems like us being invaded (or us invading someone else...) is the bad way to start off any democracy. Invasion and occupation don't seem much like obvious starts to a viable and fair government (again, cuts both ways). |
| Quote: |
| I may be remembering this slightly wrong, but George Washington himself warned against this. He also willingly chose to limit himself to 2 terms as president to prevent a dictatorship/monarchy from being established. The thought's a good one, but until people learn to self-police themselves, having it enforced by an outside group will only cause resentment and an eventual breakdown of the system. |
I'm aware of both of these (Iraq, Vietnam, etc.) and was hoping to illustrate my point with a bit of irony. Namely, that we should fix up our own country right now and quit fooling around in the Middle East where nobody wants us to be anyway. Iran doesn't have nuclear weapons.
| Dubya wrote: |
| But Iran might get some. |
Anybody might get nukes. Is this why we seem to be at odds with the rest of the world? I don't think so. I think that originally we had some sort of (bizarre) reason for going to war in the first place and we don't know how to admit to the rest of the world what they already know anyway: that we were wrong. If the United States doesn't wake up, if we keep pushing Europe away like this, if we keep trying to place threats where there are none, and if the deficit goes much deeper, this nation will surely die. Why can't we seem to realize that? 
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 20:13 Post subject: |
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| Hyraxylos wrote: |
| Obviously their government was bribed by our government, |
Quite the accusation there, anything to back it up?
| Quote: |
| because the Czech Republic I've come to know wouldn't honestly want any such thing. |
Are you sure that the people you are familiar with are representative of the country as a whole?
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| They want us to pull out and quit whining at Europe for not agreeing with us 100% |
That might be pretty similar to the sentiments of a lot of the world right now, actually.
| Quote: |
| so please explain to me why the PEOPLE of the Czech Republic (NOT the government!) would possibly want American anti-missile stuff planted on their land and pointed at Russia |
It's the government that sets policy, so unless/until the government is changed, they are well within their rights to pursue whatever policies they want.
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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Thu 10 Jul 2008 8:11 Post subject: |
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First off I've gotta say I'm a bit confused as to why this is in General Discussions. I originally put it under Debates because that's where it seemed most appropriate.
| Ragnarok wrote: |
| Quite the accusation there, anything to back it up? |
No because such an endeavor would have to be kept undercover. Thinking on it I acknowledge this may well not have happened; perhaps the Czech government was just having a bad day and acted without really paying attention to what it was doing. But I do think the possibility of a bribe just plausible enough to be up for consideration.
| Ragnarok wrote: |
| Are you sure that the people you are familiar with are representative of the country as a whole? |
This is my aunt. She regularly does tours in Europe, particularly Slovakia and the Czech Republic. I've gone on three such tours in those countries. I've met many people and and am familiar enough with the general outlook of the country. They just want all the war-related nonsense to leave them alone and for their government to quit being fascist. Now it's your turn. Prove me wrong about the friends my family has over there and has known closely since before my parents were born.
| Ragnarok wrote: |
| It's the government that sets policy, so unless/until the government is changed, they are well within their rights to pursue whatever policies they want. |
Not if some investigators manage to dig up some evidence of shady dealing, and not if the officials promise not to do certain things when being sworn in, like ignore or censor the will of the people.
Ragnarok, governments and empowered organizations are not beyond corruption. You see, you're trying to debate this with me as if I were a mechanical thinker. But I am not. I am a person, and if I suddenly get a hunch that there's corruption going on, then I'm going to believe myself until someone else can provide evidence to show innocence. I know this is irrational and translates to "guilty until proven innocent", but please note that I'm not making an OFFICIAL accusation here. This is a threaded discussion in a privately-owned forum, and if I want to make unofficial accusations of government officials then I will do so. If this were an "on-record" accusation then I would gladly respect proper protocol and carry out a full investigation. However, since I'm not someone of legal authority myself and am thus not empowered to launch an investigation, I have to use my heart. Possibly I am mistaken, but I don't think you'll find many non-"official" people who think perfectly along the lines of directed thinking demanded by government. The reasoning you use, "politicians are incapable of shady dealings because they say that they are" and "the government is a perfect flawless sunshiney representation of its people because it says it is" may convince a machine, but it won't convince me. It's called "being suspicious". If nobody were suspicious of wrongdoing (and let's get that straight--this IS wrongdoing because the Czechs are protesting), then nobody would ever investigate anything and crime would go unchecked. They are trying to prevent people from protesting the decision.
I'm suspicious of politicians because they get tempted all too often and go beyond protocol (in secret) to do things that wouldn't be approved of by the organization if said organization were aware of any such dealings. This is why I consider democracy the best form of government, because in that case the government < the people. This is why Czechs are now protesting the injustice. People are protesting in the streets and the government is trying to ignore them, thus completely missing the whole POINT of even having a government in the first place. Does this mean nothing to you at all?
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Rayadragon
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 264
Location: Somewhere between reality and imagination
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| Posted: Thu 10 Jul 2008 11:50 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| First off I've gotta say I'm a bit confused as to why this is in General Discussions. I originally put it under Debates because that's where it seemed most appropriate |
Just my opinion, but the original way this topic was phrased didn't seem like much of a debate. You admitted that it was "a totally irrational rant with no real thought behind it..." and rather than really phrasing it as a debate, you pretty much just threw out a topic without much direction behind it. It's definatly become a bit more of a debate though.
| Quote: |
Ragnarok wrote:
Quite the accusation there, anything to back it up?
No because such an endeavor would have to be kept undercover....But I do think the possibility of a bribe just plausible enough to be up for consideration. |
Why though? You've stated nothing that really backs this up. Until then it can stay your opinion, but you can't really use it as an argument for why this happened.
| Quote: |
| (trimming a lot of this, sorry)...Now it's your turn. Prove me wrong about the friends my family has over there and has known closely since before my parents were born |
My thoughts when you first started this, back at "the Czech Republic I've come to know..." were along the lines of 1) you have to know people there and 2) you still can't really make a blanket comment like that. I respect that you know people over there, I acknowledge that I don't know anyone specifically from the Czech Republic, and that the people you know hold the opinion that the missle defense station is a very, very bad idea. However, just because I live in the city that I do and talk to the people that I know, I can't claim that EVERYONE that lives here thinks the exact same way. If I can't even claim that, how can I claim what opinion the country as a whole has. No, I can't prove you wrong about what opinions your friends have, I have no right or want to do so either. I can counter with that you can't make such a broad reaching assumption just based on what they've said. Let's face it, there are still people in the US who think Bush is a good president and is doing the right thing... Just because you don't agree with them or don't associate with them doesn't mean that they're not there.
| Quote: |
| It's the government that sets policy, so unless/until the government is changed, they are well within their rights to pursue whatever policies they want |
| Quote: |
| ...The reasoning you use, "politicians are incapable of shady dealings because they say that they are" and "the government is a perfect flawless sunshiney representation of its people because it says it is" may convince a machine... |
Before I get into the rest of this, how are you determining what Ragnarok's opinion of the status of the government is based on his comment? To me it sounds pretty neutral, and doesn't really scream "The government is the best ever and consists only of wonderful people" like you seem to be stating. All I'm reading into it is the statment of fact that the government that the people elect is in office until elected out or forced to resign because of the aformentioned shady dealings. While those officials are in office they make the policy. Whether it's good or bad, it's their decision until they're removed from office. That's all I think that can be drawn from his comment. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm going to skip around a bit here, sorry in advance...
| Quote: |
| and let's get that straight--this IS wrongdoing because the Czechs are protesting), |
I'm rather glad that protests aren't the only way to determine if something is wrong. I'm a sometimes-animal-researcher. I'm pro-choice. And yet according to some protesters I'm probably going straight to hell for my beliefs. Plus imagine the mess that would be made if there were protesters from both sides of an issue were at the same event. How would you determine who was "right" and who was "wrong" if your only benchmark for being "wrong" is that people were protesting. I'm not saying that protesting is bad or good, just that because people or protesting you can't make the assumption that what they're protesting against is always wrong.
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| Possibly I am mistaken, but I don't think you'll find many non-"official" people who think perfectly along the lines of directed thinking demanded by government |
 This made me smile. I sincerely doubt you'll find many "official" people who think along the lines of government directed thinking either.
| Quote: |
| I'm suspicious of politicians because they get tempted all too often and go beyond protocol (in secret) to do things that wouldn't be approved of by the organization if said organization were aware of any such dealings. This is why I consider democracy the best form of government, because in that case the government < the people |
First off, absolute power corrupts absolutly. I have no argument with the first statment. I'll even extend it. I think (and yes, I'm breaking my own usual "no blanket statment" rule on this one) that it's an inherrent part of human nature to push the envelope as far as you can if you think you're not going to get caught. Yes, there are better impulses out there and some can follow them, just the majority will try to get away with something that isn't quite benevolent. Democracy may be the best form of government, but as you so elequently put it in your first post, we're not a shinning example of it and we're also a democracy. An interesting word of caution though, what type of chaos would there be if each and every person in the US had to vote on each and every policy that is presented? Would government come to a standstill because of the logistical issue of getting everone to vote on something? Would we start inacting policies that start really discriminating against individials because of knee-jerk reactions to particular events ongoing at the time (and yes, I know this isn't the best example, but it could be far, far worse than some of the current policies)? True democracy is a great ideal, I'm just not sure if it's possible.
| Quote: |
| You see, you're trying to debate this with me as if I were a mechanical thinker. But I am not. I am a person |
I really, really know I shouldn't say anything about this. Really, really shouldn't. I have to though. The way this statment reads to me is that those who are more mechanical thinkers aren't "people." Just because you see Ragnarok (and I'm throwing myself in on this too, since I try to think logically on these debates) as a mechanical thinker doesn't make us any less human than you are. There's a lot more I want to say but know that I can't, and I'm not even sure if I can properly state it. Regardless, it's drifting off topic, so I'll stop before I dig myself in any deeper.
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