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Celtore
Dragonstar
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 264
Location: Arkansas
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 Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 11:45 Post subject: |
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| Ragnarok wrote: |
| Celtore wrote: |
| People know where babies come from, so if they're not responsible enough to be "safe," then they have to deal with the consequences. |
Nothing's 100%. |
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| Who decides what situations are necessary? It could easily be argued that the burden of having a child at 19 is something that might make it necessary. Or in some families which don't have the resources for another. Or in any number of other situations. |
I'm 19, and I know all about where babies come from. Am I ready to have a child right now? No, I'm not. But if I were to get pregnant, it's the father's and my responsibility. As for families without the resources, there is always adoption. There are numerous advocacy groups, adoption agencies, and parents looking to adopt who will pay for pre-natal and post-natal care.
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| Families in which the parents know they have a high risk for their children getting a very serious and possibly fatal disease are an example of those who should not have children of their own. |
Sounds dangerously close to advocating eugenics. |
No, it's to spare those children the pain and suffering that I've seen happen both in my family and the community.
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| Abortion should NOT be used simply as a form of birth control. There are much more humane ways of that, the simplest and most certain being for people to keep their legs closed. |
What about abortion is "inhumane"? The fetus is completely incapable of feeling pain (the necessary structures just aren't formed yet) until somewhere in the 3rd trimester. The procedure itself is pretty bloody, but so are other surgeries. |
It's inhumane, because you're creating a life, and then destroying it. Just becaue a fetus can't feel pain doesn't mean it isn't a living human being. |
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Ragnarok
Global Moderator
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA.
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 13:08 Post subject: |
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| Celtore wrote: |
| I'm 19, and I know all about where babies come from. Am I ready to have a child right now? No, I'm not. But if I were to get pregnant, it's the father's and my responsibility. |
And an abortion would (theoretically, at least) resolve all the problems, and is the option picked by at least some of the people in that situation.
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| As for families without the resources, there is always adoption. |
Which still leaves the 9-month pregnancy.
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| Families in which the parents know they have a high risk for their children getting a very serious and possibly fatal disease are an example of those who should not have children of their own. |
Sounds dangerously close to advocating eugenics. |
No, it's to spare those children the pain and suffering that I've seen happen both in my family and the community. |
If you say so. That's not the issue here, anyway.
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| It's inhumane, because you're creating a life, and then destroying it. Just becaue a fetus can't feel pain doesn't mean it isn't a living human being. |
And here is the crux of the matter. At what point is a fetus considered a human being? Some say conception, some say birth, some say when it's capable of surviving outside the womb... which do we use? The current legal standard (with regard to abortion, anyway) is the second, and I tend to side with the third.
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Raven
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 660
Location: Lost in his mind...
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jun 2007 7:40 Post subject: |
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That is indeed the crux of the matter. But take this into account.
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| It's inhumane, because you're creating a life, and then destroying it. Just becaue a fetus can't feel pain doesn't mean it isn't a living human being. |
Yes, you are destroying life. Look at that more carefully, you are destroying the life of something that cannot feel pain to improve (or at least sustain) the quality of your own life. We do this every day. What did you eat last? If it was a plant than you destroyed life to sustain your own. Life that doesn't feel pain (at least not in the way we do.) If it was meat... well, you destroyed life to sustain your own and what you destroyed did feel pain.
Even if you say: "Well, that's necessary for survival" you're right, it is. But the undoubtedly wooden desk you're sitting at isn't. That was a living creature.
The reason people claim abortion is different is because the creature in question may become a human. Now we're just being hypocritical. The fetus could (and will) become human, but at that point it could (in theory) become almost anything. All it takes is a mix-up of DNA. The fact of the matter is though: it isn't a human (yet) and so killing it in this manner (a manner in which it feels no pain) is far more humane than letting it live. If you let it live you contribute to the continued overpopulation of the world and another child in Africa will starve to death. Something I should mention is extremely slow and, by all accounts, painful.
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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jun 2007 9:30 Post subject: |
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Here's my take on the issue... Men, by which I mean ALL men, should have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to argue EITHER SIDE of the debate (in such a way that their arguments would make an actual difference anyway). Including myself. Unless the man in question actually wants to raise the kid, but how often is that the case? In most abortions it's just a woman by herself who doesn't want to have a baby.
Note of course that shutting men out of the debate like I would propose would assuredly do more harm to the anti-abortion side than the pro-abortion. After all, since 77% of anti-abortion leaders are MALE... well...  I think that much is only justifiable if all the men of that 77% were, at some point in their lives, cut off from the chance of having kids because their wives got abortions without their permission... now why do I have SUCH a strong feeling that this is NOT the case?
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Joe Capricorn
Dragonstar
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jun 2007 17:48 Post subject: |
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Some say a human is created at conception... yet what components were used to do so?
Every egg has the capability of becoming a human if fertilized, as does every sperm if it finds an egg...
However, I don't see anyone trying to ban masturbation and menstruation, two natural (the latter involuntary) processes.
However, in the history of mankind's infinite wisdom, there was a time where masturbation was frowned upon because it was believed that men carried little babies inside them that were planted into the female like seeds.
Now personally, I think abortions should and will stay for the near future, as there are many reasons for having an abortion. However, I myself have stayed out of this debate in general as it can get iffy in the 2nd trimester and I don't believe in abortions in the 3rd trimester. However...
If an abortion is used to save a life, it should occur at any trimester unless the fetus is able to live outside the womb. We've been getting better at premature births, so abortions after the 2nd trimester will only extract the fetus and put it into an artificial womb. One day, there may be technology to do that from the point of conception, which will probably end the debate on abortion - but then there's the debate on overpopulation. That'll be a problem for a while, but then nations in formerly poor areas will have developed to the level where we are at now (or far beyond that level). It is projected that the per capita GDP of the World (it's around 8,000 dollars now) will reach 140,000 dollars in 2004 dollars by the year 2100.
Back on the topic of abortions to save lives - I would never trade my mate for a baby. If the baby is in a situation where it will cause death to its mother, the baby should be and will be aborted.
And as for abortions for rape victims, they should stay legal even if standard abortions are banned. The reason for this is that child is a result of a crime, and will one day find out as an adult that they were not just a mistake, an accident, but the result of a brutal violent crime. That person then might decide to abort themselves...
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Samariyu
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Mon 02 Jul 2007 10:09 Post subject: |
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I agree with abortion being legalized, because women should be able to at least have a choice in the matter.
But I personaly disagree with abortions themselves and would never have one, even if it would save my life.
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Hyraxylos
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Mon 02 Jul 2007 12:20 Post subject: |
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*grin* That’s because a mother’s natural animal instinct urges her to place the life of her young above her own. Nature kicks in as the cause of mothers becoming obsessively protective of their offspring long before the infant is even born. In fact I read somewhere that infant mammals are more dependent on their mothers than the hatchlings of any other class of chordates. Thus overall I would guess that most women would feel the same way which is why they don’t need some stupid law to make their choice for them. 
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Samariyu
Shining Dragonstar
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Mon 02 Jul 2007 16:44 Post subject: |
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| Hyraxylos wrote: |
| *grin* That’s because a mother’s natural animal instinct urges her to place the life of her young above her own. Nature kicks in as the cause of mothers becoming obsessively protective of their offspring long before the infant is even born. In fact I read somewhere that infant mammals are more dependent on their mothers than the hatchlings of any other class of chordates. Thus overall I would guess that most women would feel the same way which is why they don’t need some stupid law to make their choice for them. |
I don't want to be a mother, if you met me you'd know that I wouldn't make a good one anyway. 
I just think abortion is murder. That's all.
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